Subtle Differences
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Forum Post Guidelines: This Forum is rated “Family Friendly”. Civil discussions are encouraged and welcomed. Name calling, negative, harassing, or threatening comments will be removed and may result in suspension or IP Ban without notice. Please refer to the Terms of Service and Forum Guidelines post for more information. Thank you
- raffensg64
- Commander
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- Location: Medical Lake, WA
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Subtle Differences
Folks, just wanted to take a few minutes and share a recent fishing experience with others, especially those who are new to this. Nearly all of us have heard the "match the hatch" saying. The other day, I found myself absolutely dialed in on trout while using a size 16 red "zebra midge" with silver bead and rib. They would not touch the black chironimid pattern that had worked so well for me the day prior. I informed a nearby gentleman, who was struggling, of what they seemed to want. He didn't have one with silver, but had a size 16 red zebra with gold bead and rib. We both agreed this would work just fine. He went to the identical depth under his indicator with this pattern. In the next hour or so I hit another 9-10 fish, while he managed only 1. He was getting bumps and taps that indicated interest, but that was it.
Suddenly, at the drop of a hat, this guy began hammering them, and my pattern went dead. I'm slow at times but I'm not totally stupid, so, after 30 minutes I made the change to a size 16 red zebra with gold bead/rib pattern and got right back on them.
Being this bite was ongoing, I conducted an experiment. I tied on the silver bead zebra just 12" under the gold bead zebra, purposely keeping them close. 6 of the next 7 fish came up to take the gold bead/rib. I found this quite interesting that they could become this selective so quickly....the difference came down to a bead/rib color, not a pattern, pattern color or size! It was a very interesting thing to observe.
I've been fly fishing for only 8 years and am definitely still a novice. But, I'd recommend that all newbies like me commit this to memory. The difference could be the most subtle of things!
-Raff
Suddenly, at the drop of a hat, this guy began hammering them, and my pattern went dead. I'm slow at times but I'm not totally stupid, so, after 30 minutes I made the change to a size 16 red zebra with gold bead/rib pattern and got right back on them.
Being this bite was ongoing, I conducted an experiment. I tied on the silver bead zebra just 12" under the gold bead zebra, purposely keeping them close. 6 of the next 7 fish came up to take the gold bead/rib. I found this quite interesting that they could become this selective so quickly....the difference came down to a bead/rib color, not a pattern, pattern color or size! It was a very interesting thing to observe.
I've been fly fishing for only 8 years and am definitely still a novice. But, I'd recommend that all newbies like me commit this to memory. The difference could be the most subtle of things!
-Raff
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Marc Martyn
- Rear Admiral Two Stars
- Posts: 4100
- Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:01 am
RE:Subtle Differences
It is interesting how color will make a difference from one minute to another. I have noticed that with leech patterns. The only thing that I can come up with for a reason may be the light of day. The visibility of certain colors change with the amount of light.
I have a couple of friends that are divers and they have given me some interesting information on how depth and cloud cover change the colors under the surface.
Keep playing with it and keep notes. I am going to research this more because I do think it plays a big part in what is successful.
I have a couple of friends that are divers and they have given me some interesting information on how depth and cloud cover change the colors under the surface.
Keep playing with it and keep notes. I am going to research this more because I do think it plays a big part in what is successful.
- Anglinarcher
- Admiral
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- Location: Eastern Washington
RE:Subtle Differences
I really agree Marc. It use to be in style to say that profile and general hue was all that mattered, but just like raffensg64 indicated, I too have seen this, and not just with flies.Marc Martyn wrote:It is interesting how color will make a difference from one minute to another. I have noticed that with leech patterns. The only thing that I can come up with for a reason may be the light of day. The visibility of certain colors change with the amount of light.
I have a couple of friends that are divers and they have given me some interesting information on how depth and cloud cover change the colors under the surface.
Keep playing with it and keep notes. I am going to research this more because I do think it plays a big part in what is successful.
I guess that is why they call it fishing, and why we enjoy the challenge so much.
Too much water, so many fish, too little time.
- chironomid_guy
- Petty Officer
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:01 am
- Location: Laurier Wa
RE:Subtle Differences
Keep a lake/river journal as Mark hinted. In some instances I have found that fish will key on size more than color. Although that seems to be water depth dependant, due to light refraction with increase in depth. Other times the lil buggers will be so focused on a specific color you cant change they're minds. I use a throat pump as my bible, you dont want a sample of the inverts the fish ate an hour ago? I usually check throat samples every half hour or if the fish seem to be "off the bite". I have found over the years that my journal has given me great hints (ie: when the willow buds pop out yellow, the golden stones are hatching!). Hope this helps?
Cheers
Cheers
The Chironomid Guy


- raffensg64
- Commander
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:24 pm
- Location: Medical Lake, WA
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RE:Subtle Differences
Thanks, all. The light things seems like a very real possibility. In the past I attributed a sudden dropoff in activity to the ending of the bite, and figured the waiting game was on until the next began. It's becoming obvious, however, that they are often times still feeding, and we just have to discover the proper pattern, color, depth, presentation, ETC, ETC.
P.S. I had it happen again yesterday.....6 fish in the first hour on a black chronie w/white bead, then only a couple bumps for next 30 minutes or so. Switched to red zebra with silver bead and got right back on them with 6 more in the following hour. Takes were of the soaking variety that left no doubt....they were absolutely convinced. There was no discernible difference in the chironomids that were coming off the water in those 2-3 hours.
I like the journal idea. My partner keeps one. I guess it's time I joined the club!
P.S. I had it happen again yesterday.....6 fish in the first hour on a black chronie w/white bead, then only a couple bumps for next 30 minutes or so. Switched to red zebra with silver bead and got right back on them with 6 more in the following hour. Takes were of the soaking variety that left no doubt....they were absolutely convinced. There was no discernible difference in the chironomids that were coming off the water in those 2-3 hours.
I like the journal idea. My partner keeps one. I guess it's time I joined the club!
- Marc Martyn
- Rear Admiral Two Stars
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RE:Subtle Differences
Was there any change in cloud cover or wind direction at all?
- raffensg64
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RE:Subtle Differences
Marc,
The winds were swirling that day....north, south, east, and west, a little bit of each every few minutes. It was partly cloudy with intermittent periods of sun and overcast. The only consistent thing was the bite, on each pattern, was best when the wind was blowing, something we've all come to accept as the norm.
This reminds me of a report that I submitted a few years ago on Amber. I mentioned that one should be prepared to change and change often!
Raff
The winds were swirling that day....north, south, east, and west, a little bit of each every few minutes. It was partly cloudy with intermittent periods of sun and overcast. The only consistent thing was the bite, on each pattern, was best when the wind was blowing, something we've all come to accept as the norm.
This reminds me of a report that I submitted a few years ago on Amber. I mentioned that one should be prepared to change and change often!
Raff
- raffensg64
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RE:Subtle Differences
OK, I just read an article on "chromie" patterns. The author stated that pupae will often take on a silvery appearance just before it begins it's ascent (I've heard and read this before). At this time they'll hold at a certain depth, usually very near the bottom, in a process known as "staging". At this time chromie patterns can be ultra-effective. My partner ties some chromie patterns, and I've lost count of how many times they were the only pattern that would get takes.
The pattern he included in a photo was....guess what...red and silver. The body was tied with red and silver holographic tinsel. It's possible the pupae were in this "staging" process when my red/silver zebra was working so well, but they lost their silvery appearance as they ascended, causing the fish to key in on the darker red/gold pattern.
So, I guess that as successive hatches come and go, one should be prepared to change and change often!
The pattern he included in a photo was....guess what...red and silver. The body was tied with red and silver holographic tinsel. It's possible the pupae were in this "staging" process when my red/silver zebra was working so well, but they lost their silvery appearance as they ascended, causing the fish to key in on the darker red/gold pattern.
So, I guess that as successive hatches come and go, one should be prepared to change and change often!
-
- Warrant Officer
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RE:Subtle Differences
As a diver in addition to a fly fisherman I have seen this "silvery" appearance in chironomids at Amber Lake. I have had it explained to me by a professor of entomology that the chironomid creates a gas bubble around its body (as do most aquatic insects) to aid in its ascent to the surface. This creates the silvery appearance when light strikes the chironomid. The red color is from the blood in the somewhat transparent body.
I use red/silver patters with varying degrees of success. I am still pretty new to fishing chironomids (3 years out of over 32 years of fly fishing) and am still learning what to throw where at this point. Last year I had a lot of success at Amber and Fan Lakes with red/silver patterns. Interestingly enough I have yet to catch a fish on a black/silver pattern. I also have a lot of success with wine/silver and bronze/silver combinations. I became hooked (pun intended) on fishing chironomids last spring when I caught nearly 40 fish in an afternoon on Amber. Since then I have one rod rigged for them with me at all times.
Tight lines!
I use red/silver patters with varying degrees of success. I am still pretty new to fishing chironomids (3 years out of over 32 years of fly fishing) and am still learning what to throw where at this point. Last year I had a lot of success at Amber and Fan Lakes with red/silver patterns. Interestingly enough I have yet to catch a fish on a black/silver pattern. I also have a lot of success with wine/silver and bronze/silver combinations. I became hooked (pun intended) on fishing chironomids last spring when I caught nearly 40 fish in an afternoon on Amber. Since then I have one rod rigged for them with me at all times.
Tight lines!
- raffensg64
- Commander
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RE:Subtle Differences
Yeah, Rooscooter, chironomids are often times the way to go! I'd read somewhere that chironomid pupa can account for upwards of three-quarters of a trout's diet. When my partner pumps stomachs, often times there's nothing there except chironomids, many of which are black/silver.
I've been told of that gas bubble, too, that aids them in their ascent. I've seen them coming up on bright days....that bubble shimmers like a light bulb! In most cases, my partners and I only need a black/red pattern with white bead, but when this stops producing my go-to pattern is that red/silver zebra.
It's amazing how selective trout can be as the day and the hatch progresses. If a pattern quits producing but the hatch continues, the trout are probably still feeding and one has to identify the next pattern to use. My crew prefers that we all be on the water at the same time....this allows us all to experiment around until we find what they want....it keeps us on the fish a lot more.
I've been told of that gas bubble, too, that aids them in their ascent. I've seen them coming up on bright days....that bubble shimmers like a light bulb! In most cases, my partners and I only need a black/red pattern with white bead, but when this stops producing my go-to pattern is that red/silver zebra.
It's amazing how selective trout can be as the day and the hatch progresses. If a pattern quits producing but the hatch continues, the trout are probably still feeding and one has to identify the next pattern to use. My crew prefers that we all be on the water at the same time....this allows us all to experiment around until we find what they want....it keeps us on the fish a lot more.
- Lotech Joe
- Commodore
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RE:Subtle Differences
Here's a link to an article by Brian Chan. He's probably the world's foremost authority on chironomid fishing. I talked with him briefly at the Great Western Sportfishing Show last year and he said that the chironomids in rivers were generally smaller that those in lakes. He also confirmed the gas bubbles idea and said that using wire wraps or holographic tinsel works well. Anyway, here's the link;
http://www.flyfishersrepublic.com/tacti ... d-tactics/
He's a very interesting fellow.
http://www.flyfishersrepublic.com/tacti ... d-tactics/
He's a very interesting fellow.
Where you go is less important than how you get there.
Fish With A Friend
Lotech Joe
Fish With A Friend
Lotech Joe