It can happen to the best of us.

[jbball50]

Fear of something like that is what keeps me from hitting the rivers. I am afraid of commiting an infraction on an honest mistake. However, the fact that I don't know how the hell to tell a wild steelhead from a hatchery one makes me deicide just to avoid it and I would never fish for them unless I was sure I know what I'm doing. For a weekend warrior like me, it just seems like too much effort to know how to differentiate all the types of salmon and steelhead. Maybe if I was raised on this side of the Cascade I would have learned by now.

Hatchery fish=no adipose fin, Wild fish=have an adipose fin. Also steelhead are alot leaner and skinnier than salmon most of the time.

[Anonymous]

Fear of something like that is what keeps me from hitting the rivers. I am afraid of commiting an infraction on an honest mistake. However, the fact that I don't know how the hell to tell a wild steelhead from a hatchery one makes me deicide just to avoid it and I would never fish for them unless I was sure I know what I'm doing. For a weekend warrior like me, it just seems like too much effort to know how to differentiate all the types of salmon and steelhead. Maybe if I was raised on this side of the Cascade I would have learned by now.

Removed adipose fin = Hatchery fish.
Intact adipose fin = Wild fish.

[Mike Carey]

ONe thing, I think this year the pink salmon season brought out a lot of, shall I say, amatuer anglers who had no concept of fishing regs, proper CandR, etc. It was distressing because the habits practiced on the pinks get passed on to the more critical runs.

Not hinting at anyone on this site, just saying.

[flinginpooh]

steelies look like a big rainbow trout, because that is what they are. A sea bearing rainbow, born in a river swim out to sea live a while swim back and spawn then head back out if there not taken. Salmon are salmon not trout at all. They look different. And as mentioned fin is native no fin with scar is hatchery. Steelies are so fun you should really try em.

[flinginpooh]

ONe thing, I think this year the pink salmon season brought out a lot of, shall I say, amatuer anglers who had no concept of fishing regs, proper CandR, etc. It was distressing because the habits practiced on the pinks get passed on to the more critical runs.

Not hinting at anyone on this site, just saying.

Mike I seen some of the worst things going on this year on the rivers. And I think your 10000% right. Pink fever ran rampid in the waters. Every one it seems hit rivers and tried it for the first time. ie... look at craigs list, tons of posts for fishing gear at good prices cause they didnt like fishing but ran out to try it. And kennedy creek took the cake. Went there one time and that will be the last time I ever go there. Kid pond with snag happy people rippin the hooks out of the tails and flinging weights at you left and right. However catching over 20 chum in around an hour was fun. You cant play a fish there though. Litter? OMG fish kicking tail rippin you name it. This year will be better I hope. But the reported springer return will bring out more yahoos from the wood work Im sure.

[Coastfishin]

All this hatchery fish, native fish has got me thinking#-o What I want to know is if hatchery fish are coming back to the rivers and spawning, their smolts going to the ocean and returning, their smolts are now natives because they have their adipose fin intact. If this is the case, how can the hatchery fish be hurting the native runs?

[Blackmouth]

All this hatchery fish, native fish has got me thinking#-o What I want to know is if hatchery fish are coming back to the rivers and spawning, their smolts going to the ocean and returning, their smolts are now natives because they have their adipose fin intact. If this is the case, how can the hatchery fish be hurting the native runs?

In short Coastfishing, the gene pool between wild and hatchery fish is different. Hatchery fish have never had to spawn, never had to grow up in a river with predators, so they don't typically possess what one would call a "good" set of genes for reproduction. Compare that to a 20lb native Buck steelhead that's made it thru several spawning and ocean cycles, they obviously picked up better genes.

People argue that the native gene pool can get diluted if hatchery and native fish spawn together... Many of our stocks have this mixing I'd assume.

Another argument is that hatchery steelhead fry/smolts are another source of competition for the native fry/smolts in a system. Hatcherys are capable of producing many more hatchery fish than a system that has native fish can handle, and this competition in the early stages of their lives can harm a native's chances of getting to the ocean...

I'm not against hatcheries, I just think we need more selective management of them. Systems like the Cowlitz have become great fisheries for hatchery fish, thanks to the hatcheries on that river. I just don't agree with throwing a hatchery on every system. Keep the native stocks that we have separate from our hatchery operations. My .02. Our native stocks are in terrible shape and I value a true, wild steelhead a lot higher than a hatchery clone.

[ckim85]

i agree with Blackmouth. Strongly agree infact. Hatcheries are good for supplementing a fishery for people who are fishing for meat. However, the numbers they pump into the river systems directly compete with our native populations. Keep those hatchery brats in select waters for meat fishers.

Semantics...native fish and wild fish are not the same. Wild fish can be considered hatchery smolt, while native fish are simply native. Some argue that there are no true native runs in our PS rivers anymore. They are all wild hatchery fish :/

[bionic_one]

Initially, Hatchery fish mixing and breeding with native fish is "bad", BUT, the same rules that makes it bad (evolution, natural selection, etc.) clean up the mess within a few generations. I always keep hatchery fish, but if a hatchery fish breeds in the wild with a wild fish or another hatchery fish, it's not as big a concern as people make it out to be. Sure, their offspring will have lower survival rates, but after a few cycles of breeding, those bad genes will be weeded out.

Not to mention, EVERY HATCHERY FISH CAME FROM A WILD FISH at some point. Those eggs weren't just manufactured in some laboratory. They were taken from wild fish, so, at some level, hatchery fish share the same genes with wild fish, and genes that are/were REALLY BAD for survival rates, should have been eliminated from the genepool over that past several thousand years of salmon/steelhead runs. Otherwise, those genes aren't that bad for the fish in the first place eh?

I could be wrong, but most hatcheries practice releasing fish into the river system at a time that is LEAST likely to have a negative effect on the wild fish that are in the river. right?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think every river needs a hatchery :-)


Wonder why they don't just sell tickets or whatever for native fish like they do for hunting? That would be a really effective control method.



This year was my first year fishing in the NW (I grew up in SC) - Thinking back, I'm disgusted with how people on the puyallup handle fish. It was so fun watching yahoos with the huge $20 wal-mart saltwater rods stacking pinks up on the bank. or all the good ole boys down by the 6th street bridge banking everything and catching multiple limits. Love all those unemployed scrubs that get to lay waste to fish all day on my dime.

[ckim85]

bionic one, yes, every hatchery fish came from a wild fish AT SOME POINT. it does not make it the same fish. hatchery fish behave drastically different than native steelhead.

It's the difference between a planted rainbow trout in our local waters as opposed to a wild rainbow out of a blue ribbon trout river. their feeding habits along with aggression, overall behavior is completely different.

It's no different from Hatchery steelhead vs native. It's the general idea that Hatchery fish is NOT the real deal. They weren't there before...they shouldn't be there now. Especially since they effect the survival rate of our native fish. You see rivers like Methow suffering from the hatchery fish. I think it's a great idea that they are enforcing anglers to be required to keep hatchery fish if caught. Remove the damn hatchery fish and give the natives a chance to breed and grow.

Yes, While hatchery fish spawn earlier than natives, they still overlap greatly.

I'm not 100% opposed to hatchery fish. I think there's a great market for it for meat fishers and people do need food on the table at the end of the day. I have a friends who refuse to fish unless they can bring something home. But better management of these programs should be brought to attention. Putting hatcheries in every system isn't the solution...its a short term solution which results in long term problems.

I've realized this past year that most anglers don't give a crap whether its hatchery, native, blah blah. It's just fish for them. Mike makes a great point. Every angler and their grandmothers that had great success with pinks are now just out to grab whatever fish they can. Steelhead is one of them it seems. I'm no expert when it comes to fishing for steelhead but I witnessed some of the worst handling this past year. I watched a guide (i'll refrain from posting his website) out of Sauk catch a wild fish, drop it into his boat, take pictures, then release the fish (wonder if the fish survived...)

Too many pictures showing guys lifting fish out of water and laying on gravel/mud...

Here's a great site that shows a lot of pros/cons to hatchery fish.
http://www.coastrange.org/salmon&survivalpg3.html

[Blackmouth]

Initially, Hatchery fish mixing and breeding with native fish is "bad", BUT, the same rules that makes it bad (evolution, natural selection, etc.) clean up the mess within a few generations. I always keep hatchery fish, but if a hatchery fish breeds in the wild with a wild fish or another hatchery fish, it's not as big a concern as people make it out to be. Sure, their offspring will have lower survival rates, but after a few cycles of breeding, those bad genes will be weeded out.

Not to mention, EVERY HATCHERY FISH CAME FROM A WILD FISH at some point. Those eggs weren't just manufactured in some laboratory. They were taken from wild fish, so, at some level, hatchery fish share the same genes with wild fish, and genes that are/were REALLY BAD for survival rates, should have been eliminated from the genepool over that past several thousand years of salmon/steelhead runs. Otherwise, those genes aren't that bad for the fish in the first place eh?
e.

They had to come from a wild fish at some point, but often times hatcheries take eggs/sperm from other hatcheries that have surplus returns. Simply put, a hatchery fish does not have the same survival instincts as a true native fish since they were reared in a hatchery. Theres a reason why native fish are often a lot bigger, stronger and smarter than hatchery fish...

[bionic_one]

Initially, Hatchery fish mixing and breeding with native fish is "bad", BUT, the same rules that makes it bad (evolution, natural selection, etc.) clean up the mess within a few generations. I always keep hatchery fish, but if a hatchery fish breeds in the wild with a wild fish or another hatchery fish, it's not as big a concern as people make it out to be. Sure, their offspring will have lower survival rates, but after a few cycles of breeding, those bad genes will be weeded out.

Not to mention, EVERY HATCHERY FISH CAME FROM A WILD FISH at some point. Those eggs weren't just manufactured in some laboratory. They were taken from wild fish, so, at some level, hatchery fish share the same genes with wild fish, and genes that are/were REALLY BAD for survival rates, should have been eliminated from the genepool over that past several thousand years of salmon/steelhead runs. Otherwise, those genes aren't that bad for the fish in the first place eh?
e.

They had to come from a wild fish at some point, but often times hatcheries take eggs/sperm from other hatcheries that have surplus returns. Simply put, a hatchery fish does not have the same survival instincts as a true native fish since they were reared in a hatchery. Theres a reason why native fish are often a lot bigger, stronger and smarter than hatchery fish...

I completely agree with you, and my earlier post said as much, just in different words. I also said that mixing of hatchery with native genes was bad at first, but within a few generations, the bad genes will be gone. Survival of the fittest can't be avoided.

[Coastfishin]

So, I think I'm really lost now! I thought the hatchery fish were planted when they are smolts, and make the trip to the ocean and back, so therefore they must have some of the natural instincts wild fish have. Then if 2 hatchery fish spawn in the river, what you are saying is their smolts will still be hatchery fish?
So if you catch a native fish, how can you can tell if its parents were true natives or hatchery fish?

[Anonymous]

So if you catch a native fish, how can you can tell if its parents were true natives or hatchery fish?

You can't

[ckim85]

So, I think I'm really lost now! I thought the hatchery fish were planted when they are smolts, and make the trip to the ocean and back, so therefore they must have some of the natural instincts wild fish have. Then if 2 hatchery fish spawn in the river, what you are saying is their smolts will still be hatchery fish?
So if you catch a native fish, how can you can tell if its parents were true natives or hatchery fish?

if two hatchery fish spawn, then it becomes a "wild" fish by semantics. A wild fish is not necessarily native, but does not have its adipose clipped. It still does however have its hatchery gene's. and no you can't tell the difference.

It's more or less the concern that we are diluting native gene pools with these hatchery fish that never did originate from that river system. It's tough to understand this for many people because at the end of the day, a steelhead is a steelhead, but it's about keeping our native waters pure and keepign the original gene pool safe the way they are.

Yes, hatchery fish make the same trip as a native fish but those natural instincts don't always equate behavioral patterns. Despite the same journey, native steelhead are known to be much more aggressive in nature than hatchery fish. Many will argue this but in the end, it's not so much of a concern that our hatchery fish will directly harm native fish (which they will) but again, its more about keeping our native waters pure.

Going backt o my example of hatchery planted rainbow trout in local waters vs a wild rainbow trout. A hatchery rainbow trout in water does not always make it the same rainbow trout in native waters.

[vbm]

It would seem that the native or "wild" fish are inferior to the hatchery fish. My reasoning for this is if the native fish are so delicate that taking them out of the water prior to release over stresses them but doesn't affect the hatchery fish then the native fish are of a weaker stock. If we truly desire the survival of the fittest in our fish then perhaps we shouldn't give the native fish special handling.

[bionic_one]

It would seem that the native or "wild" fish are inferior to the hatchery fish. My reasoning for this is if the native fish are so delicate that taking them out of the water prior to release over stresses them but doesn't affect the hatchery fish then the native fish are of a weaker stock. If we truly desire the survival of the fittest in our fish then perhaps we shouldn't give the native fish special handling.

You are missing a highly relevant facet in your argument. It's not that Wild or Native fish are more sensitive, it's just that hatchery fish survival isn't a concern since it's legal to keep them. In fact, once you catch a hatchery fish, you shouldn't put it back, and in many cases, are not allowed to.

Moreover, a hatchery fish isn't the "fittest" for survival. Most of them have lower survival rates once they introduce their genes into wild populations. The traits that result in higher survival rates in juvenile fish, are often bread out of the hatchery fish, because they are protected in the juvenile phase (which is actually the phase when the MOST predation occurs), when you factor in juvenile survival rates, from a genetic standpoint, wild/native fish are far superior to hatchery fish. Hatchery fish are the equivelent of free range cattle stock.