Carp or Northern Pike Minnow disposal - What is actually the best way to do it?

[Stacie Kelsey]

Sorry I didn't read most of the first part of the thread, just the bits about the Squawfish.

I oversee the commercial carp fishery down here in Region 5. I spoke with a couple of my anglers last night about the long lake issue and they seemed to think there is something beyond stress from spawning. It will be interesting to see if anything comes from the samples that the Pathologist took.

I went back and read the initial issues about the bow hunting of carp and disposal.

Carp are considered as a food fish and fall under WAC 220-56-140 which states:

It shall be unlawful to take, fish for or possess food fish or shellfish taken for personal use with the intent of wasting or destroying such food fish or shellfish.

So no, you cannot go bow hunting for carp then just throw them in the lake.

stace

[YellowBear]

Anything I kill comes home.

I agree with land owners that dead fish can be a problem but if you are going to live on a lake you are going to have to deal with dead fish from time to time.

On the other part of this discussion, dead Carp at long lake.
This is interesting.
Carp are one of the most adaptable species we have.
They can tolerate more stress than most fish.
Drastic temp changes.
Low oxygen levels.
Even man made pollution effects Carp less than other species.

It will be interesting to see what the WDFW comes up with.

If anyone is fishing long, please post your observations.

[Anglinarcher]

Sorry I didn't read most of the first part of the thread, just the bits about the Squawfish.

I oversee the commercial carp fishery down here in Region 5. I spoke with a couple of my anglers last night about the long lake issue and they seemed to think there is something beyond stress from spawning. It will be interesting to see if anything comes from the samples that the Pathologist took.

I went back and read the initial issues about the bow hunting of carp and disposal.

Carp are considered as a food fish and fall under WAC 220-56-140 which states:

It shall be unlawful to take, fish for or possess food fish or shellfish taken for personal use with the intent of wasting or destroying such food fish or shellfish.

So no, you cannot go bow hunting for carp then just throw them in the lake.

stace

Stacie, I must admit, considering carp to be a food fish is the height of Washington State ignorance.

My youngest daughter spent 18 months in Poland where Carp are a big food fish. She has friends in Spokane that are from Poland. Even the Polish won't eat Carp when they come to the US.

So, riddle me this Bat Man, just how many of your precious "food fish carp" are consumed by Washington Residents every year? I know that they are commercially processed for some fish sandwiches, the poor quality fish sandwiches where people don't know what they are. I know they are used for animal food. But, how many are eaten in Washington by Humans?

[Stacie Kelsey]

Please keep in mind that Pikeminnow are classified as a Game Fish and fall under the 'wasteful' rule.

Is this classification of the Northern Pike Minnow in accordance with the will and desire of Washington residents? Furthermore, would it matter if it's not? Sometimes I'm left with the impression that the WDFW thinks it knows much better how to maintain the waters.

Still have to say that this idea of treating lakes sounds like a horrible thing to do.

What would be a good legal way to try to instigate a reduction in the population of northern pike minnow on Lake Spokane?

In addition to pikeminnow, peamouth, largescale suckers, bridgelip suckers,longnose suckers and mountain suckers were also reclassified as 'game fish'. I am not sure what the background of the reclassification is, but I can try and find out if you like. As far as if it is the will and desire of Washington residents, I can't answer that question.

I am not sure if the reclassification involved public input or not. I do know that when these decisions are made they are done so after a lot of thought, research, surveys and science. We do our best to manage the waters not only for the best of the fish but also the interest of the public.

In my region we have three classifications of lakes: trout, warmwater, mixed. Based on the lake, the fish species historically and currently in the lake and the public fishery on the lake. Sometimes those classifications change as in the example of Mineral Lake in Lewis County.

Historically we tried to manage that lake as not only a trout lake, but a high quality trout lake. However, members of the public took it upon themselves to stock warmwater fish into the lake. In the early 80s we did a few rehabs (rotenone treatments) on the lake to remove the warmwater fish. Within a short time, the warmwater fish were back. Sadly they are there in large numbers and rehab treatments are no longer an option so we have are managing it as a mixed lake now.

As far as the pikeminnow issues in Spokane, I would recommending contacting the local fish and wildlife biologist in that area and talk to them about their management of the lake. Find out what their goal is for the fishery.

I can tell you from issues in our Region with pikeminnow, we have tried programs like introducing Tiger Musky to prey on pikeminnow populations in order to keep them from feeding on kokanee. Reward programs aren't an option because they are very expensive and someone has to fund them. Rehab is not an option because of the salmonid populations in those waters.

stace

[Stacie Kelsey]

Stacie, I must admit, considering carp to be a food fish is the height of Washington State ignorance.

My youngest daughter spent 18 months in Poland where Carp are a big food fish. She has friends in Spokane that are from Poland. Even the Polish won't eat Carp when they come to the US.

So, riddle me this Bat Man, just how many of your precious "food fish carp" are consumed by Washington Residents every year? I know that they are commercially processed for some fish sandwiches, the poor quality fish sandwiches where people don't know what they are. I know they are used for animal food. But, how many are eaten in Washington by Humans?

As I indicated above, I oversee the commercial carp fishery in my area. I can tell you that there are a lot of people that eat carp. The commercial anglers provide these fish to their communities. Some of them are looking into more marketing opportunities.

stace

[racfish]

I eat the roe of carp and once a year I make a traditional dish using fresh carp.Now Stacie I'm not trying to sound like a smart allic but why dosent the state raise the tax on fresh bait to cover these costs. Wa state raises taxes on so much nonsense stuff anyways."Tax them Herring,Nightcrawlers and Maggots"

[Stacie Kelsey]

I eat the roe of carp and once a year I make a traditional dish using fresh carp.Now Stacie I'm not trying to sound like a smart allic but why dosent the state raise the tax on fresh bait to cover these costs. Wa state raises taxes on so much nonsense stuff anyways."Tax them Herring,Nightcrawlers and Maggots"

Right about now, I think we are taking suggestions on anything. The budget issues are really bad. I will definitely pass this along!

stace

[FishTank]

Please keep in mind that Pikeminnow are classified as a Game Fish and fall under the 'wasteful' rule.

Is this classification of the Northern Pike Minnow in accordance with the will and desire of Washington residents? Furthermore, would it matter if it's not? Sometimes I'm left with the impression that the WDFW thinks it knows much better how to maintain the waters.

Still have to say that this idea of treating lakes sounds like a horrible thing to do.

What would be a good legal way to try to instigate a reduction in the population of northern pike minnow on Lake Spokane?

In addition to pikeminnow, peamouth, largescale suckers, bridgelip suckers,longnose suckers and mountain suckers were also reclassified as 'game fish'. I am not sure what the background of the reclassification is, but I can try and find out if you like. As far as if it is the will and desire of Washington residents, I can't answer that question.

I am not sure if the reclassification involved public input or not. I do know that when these decisions are made they are done so after a lot of thought, research, surveys and science. We do our best to manage the waters not only for the best of the fish but also the interest of the public.

In my region we have three classifications of lakes: trout, warmwater, mixed. Based on the lake, the fish species historically and currently in the lake and the public fishery on the lake. Sometimes those classifications change as in the example of Mineral Lake in Lewis County.

Historically we tried to manage that lake as not only a trout lake, but a high quality trout lake. However, members of the public took it upon themselves to stock warmwater fish into the lake. In the early 80s we did a few rehabs (rotenone treatments) on the lake to remove the warmwater fish. Within a short time, the warmwater fish were back. Sadly they are there in large numbers and rehab treatments are no longer an option so we have are managing it as a mixed lake now.

As far as the pikeminnow issues in Spokane, I would recommending contacting the local fish and wildlife biologist in that area and talk to them about their management of the lake. Find out what their goal is for the fishery.

I can tell you from issues in our Region with pikeminnow, we have tried programs like introducing Tiger Musky to prey on pikeminnow populations in order to keep them from feeding on kokanee. Reward programs aren't an option because they are very expensive and someone has to fund them. Rehab is not an option because of the salmonid populations in those waters.

stace

Thank you for the quality responses, Stacie.

As for pikeminnow... something tells me WDFW wouldn't have to try too hard to get bass anglers to go after them with the purpose of reducing their numbers.

I think I might follow up with the local fish and wildlife biologist. The thing that has me perplexed on Lake Spokane is that I haven't seen any baby largemouth bass. I know the lake population is skewed toward smallmouth bass, and so there could be pressure coming from them that is reducing largemouth numbers.

[Stacie Kelsey]

I always encourage anglers to contact the local fish biologist with quesitons and concerns. I get tons of calls weekly about similar things. You guys are out there on a much more regular basis than we often can be and have a really good feel for what is happening with the lakes.

That's why I like to take volunteers out electroshocking when I do surveys. It's really beneficial to learn the lake from the guys that use it all the time. And it's helpful to get input from them when it comes to trends they see over time.

So definitely get ahold of them. The Spokane Office can be reached at: (509) 892-1001. Ask to speak to the Inland Fish Biologist for the lake you have questions about.

If you have any other questions, feel free to let me know!

[racfish]

Darn it Stacie .!!! youre being so helpful and informative. Stop it or I might like our state employees again.

[Stacie Kelsey]

LOL!

Here to help!!

[Nik]

So if I bash a pikeminnow's head in and float it, then I witness an osprey or an eagle picking it up, does that count as wasting it? I'm going to just assume the answer is no. Feeding our national bird is about as noble a cause as a pikeminnow could hope to die for. The way I see it I'm doing it a favor.

[Anglinarcher]

Stacie, I must admit, considering carp to be a food fish is the height of Washington State ignorance.

My youngest daughter spent 18 months in Poland where Carp are a big food fish. She has friends in Spokane that are from Poland. Even the Polish won't eat Carp when they come to the US.

So, riddle me this Bat Man, just how many of your precious "food fish carp" are consumed by Washington Residents every year? I know that they are commercially processed for some fish sandwiches, the poor quality fish sandwiches where people don't know what they are. I know they are used for animal food. But, how many are eaten in Washington by Humans?

As I indicated above, I oversee the commercial carp fishery in my area. I can tell you that there are a lot of people that eat carp. The commercial anglers provide these fish to their communities. Some of them are looking into more marketing opportunities.

stace

Stacie, I keep hearing that, but I see no evidence of actual scientific polling or surveys to back up your claim. Can you provide this to us. Frankly, if we can get someone to eat them, all the better. Still, calling dog feces a candy bar does not work so trying to create a false fish market will be short lived at best.

[Anglinarcher]

I always encourage anglers to contact the local fish biologist with quesitons and concerns. I get tons of calls weekly about similar things. You guys are out there on a much more regular basis than we often can be and have a really good feel for what is happening with the lakes.

That's why I like to take volunteers out electroshocking when I do surveys. It's really beneficial to learn the lake from the guys that use it all the time. And it's helpful to get input from them when it comes to trends they see over time.

So definitely get ahold of them. The Spokane Office can be reached at: (509) 892-1001. Ask to speak to the Inland Fish Biologist for the lake you have questions about.

If you have any other questions, feel free to let me know!

Thanks Stacie, I am challenging you on a lot of things, mostly because of all the States I have lived in this one seem the most political and most biologically incompetent, but I really do appreciate the fact that you are trying to help.

[Anglinarcher]

So, in summary of the answers given to my original question, there is no LEGAL way to "dispose" of Carp or Pikeminnow. They must be used in a non-wasteful manner. The term waste is not defined, and is therefore open to interpretation.

It would therefore be my assumption that any tickets, if given, would be at the discretion of the ticketing officer, and if taken to court, would be interpreted from the bias of the judge you happen to draw.

As such, fish for and catch pikeminnow and/or carp all you want, but the final resting place of such species will be left to your discretion and the amount of risk you feel you can/will take.

Stacie and others, does this about sum it up?

[iwalton]

Stacie, I must admit, considering carp to be a food fish is the height of Washington State ignorance.

My youngest daughter spent 18 months in Poland where Carp are a big food fish. She has friends in Spokane that are from Poland. Even the Polish won't eat Carp when they come to the US.

So, riddle me this Bat Man, just how many of your precious "food fish carp" are consumed by Washington Residents every year? I know that they are commercially processed for some fish sandwiches, the poor quality fish sandwiches where people don't know what they are. I know they are used for animal food. But, how many are eaten in Washington by Humans?

As I indicated above, I oversee the commercial carp fishery in my area. I can tell you that there are a lot of people that eat carp. The commercial anglers provide these fish to their communities. Some of them are looking into more marketing opportunities.

stace

Stacie, I keep hearing that, but I see no evidence of actual scientific polling or surveys to back up your claim. Can you provide this to us. Frankly, if we can get someone to eat them, all the better. Still, calling dog feces a candy bar does not work so trying to create a false fish market will be short lived at best.

Loads of people eat carp in the United States. Most of these people are not your typical WASP crowd, I have many ethnic friends that eat carp regularly.

I'm really not sure what the fuss is about. Stacie provided a very clear answer-you aren't allowed to catch fish and throw them on the bank simply because you don't like what species they are. Every fish is a resource, and wasting them just puts anglers in a bad light.
Hate carp? Cool. I'll still catch and release them, because I know what a thrill they can be for people willing to look beyond a little fish snobbery.

[Anglinarcher]

As I indicated above, I oversee the commercial carp fishery in my area. I can tell you that there are a lot of people that eat carp. The commercial anglers provide these fish to their communities. Some of them are looking into more marketing opportunities.

stace

Stacie, I keep hearing that, but I see no evidence of actual scientific polling or surveys to back up your claim. Can you provide this to us. Frankly, if we can get someone to eat them, all the better. Still, calling dog feces a candy bar does not work so trying to create a false fish market will be short lived at best.

Loads of people eat carp in the United States. Most of these people are not your typical WASP crowd, I have many ethnic friends that eat carp regularly.

I'm really not sure what the fuss is about. Stacie provided a very clear answer-you aren't allowed to catch fish and throw them on the bank simply because you don't like what species they are. Every fish is a resource, and wasting them just puts anglers in a bad light.
Hate carp? Cool. I'll still catch and release them, because I know what a thrill they can be for people willing to look beyond a little fish snobbery.

Fish snobbery? LOL OK, you win, I'm a fish snob.

So, what does that make you, a biological fool? Carp are not native to this continent. Because they are not native they are not adapted, but invasive. Because they are invasive, they can become the largest biomass of a system in short order. A system, lake, river, etc., can only carry so much biomass, be it a lot of little fish, fewer medium fish, or few large fish. Left to nature's own devices, you normally get a year class structure with fish best adapted to fit the maximum biomass of the system.

In the case of invasive species, they overtake the native species by consuming or destroying links in the food chain, or by pushing them out of preferred habitat. Carp, for example, destroy massive amounts of weeds. That is why Washington planted Grass Carp in some area, to control invasive weeds that were adapted to carp in the first place. Carp also create a large amount of turbidity (mud) in the water, push native and non-native species off their beds, cause silt that can smother native insect life, spread ...................................... There is very little carp do that is right for this climate.

OK, I assume you ARE NOT A FOOL, just not a fisheries expert. Still, ask Stacie if I am wrong on any of those points.

I don't like Northernpikeminnow, but as Stacie indicated, they ARE native and in their normal environment, unchanged by our interference, they serve a purpose. On the other hand, in areas where warming water and slower current have caused the balance to change, we need to assist in their reduction.

I see no redeeming reason for carp to exist outside of Europe/Asia where they are native and people have grown accustomed to eating them.

I do recognize that there are some non-native species that are desirable. Obviously Bass is desirable to many of us, and, while they are native to North America, they are not native to Washington. Still, as has been demonstrated by the changes in regulations over the years, there is sufficient pressure on them to keep them in check. Other non-native species also fit into this category.

Fisheries management is a tough issue, one of opinions, ideas, failed experiments, an ever evolving work of art and science. Note that I did not say politics, which is what I fear is the real problem with Washington State fisheries management.

[iwalton]

Fish snobbery? LOL OK, you win, I'm a fish snob.

Excellent.

Regardless, invasive or not, carp are here to stay. Foaming at the mouth over them won't change that picture.

I guess with a name like Anglinarcher, I can't really expect you to be accepting or even neutral about carp. I also understand your frustration with the regulations on wasting fish. Anyone who bow"fishes" surely would be annoyed with rules prohibiting them from leaving all their "catches" littering the shore.

Anyway, back to the original question.

Stacie, I must admit, considering carp to be a food fish is the height of Washington State ignorance....So, riddle me this Bat Man, just how many of your precious "food fish carp" are consumed by Washington Residents every year? I know that they are commercially processed for some fish sandwiches, the poor quality fish sandwiches where people don't know what they are. I know they are used for animal food. But, how many are eaten in Washington by Humans?

There's a commercial fishery for common carp on Vancouver Lake. At Green Lake, in Seattle, the majority of the anglers I spotted there were fishing for carp. As I mentioned previously, there are loads of people eating carp all around the United States, and of course in WA state. I used to fish in California at some fairly dirty city park ponds, and would watch hordes of people catch and keep, for food, common carp by the stringerful. People even eat them from the L.A. River, which makes even the dirtiest river in the NW look clean.
Most of my Russian friends will eat the carp they catch around here, as will my asian friends. Classifying carp as a "food fish" makes the most sense to me, heavens knows the outrage that would occur if it were labeled a "game fish."

Anglinarcher, if I'm coming off harsh, its because you seem to be oblivious to the fact that carp are utilized by many anglers, just not the ones that usually post on WALakes. Cheers.

However, this state does encourage carp fishing. Washington state does make it quite easy for anyone to catch and keep all the carp they want to eat. Why? Carp is one of the only fish in the state that a fishing license is not required for. Look it up in the regs (Great way to introduce kids to fishing...

[Anglinarcher]

iwalton, you assume too much, and look a little silly doing so.

My name has nothing to do with bow fishing. As previously explained a long time ago, on this site, on a thread about what your name is all about, my youngest daughter created the e-mail moniker, and thus my name, a long time ago by combining my two biggest hobbies into one.

I am an avid bow hunter of big game, and in my somewhat younger years, in noted amature in target archery. When I am not shooting the bow in competition or hunting big game, I fish, and fish, and fish, and fish. This is how I handle my high stress Engineering and Construction Management job working for my Government clients.

As for fishing, I am no purest, and can argue for and against most species. I fish for most species. I enjoy my Walleye, my Bass, my Tiger Muskies, my Northern Pike, my "Rainbow Trout", my Brown Trout, and my other non-native species every bit as much as I do my Red Bands, my Steelhead, my Cutthroats, my sturgeon and my Salmon. My science background is diverse, but deep, so this aids and enforces my opinions, and experience. I have assisted, informally and formally, the fisheries management departments in Colorado, New Mexico, Montana, Idaho, and Utah. For some reason, I can't find common ground with Washington - perhaps the politics.

I find your claim that "leaving all their "catches" littering the shore" is something that I or most bow fishers want to do a bid disingenuous. I asked how the best way was to dispose of them, not permission to litter the shores. Get your facts straight or find a new thread.

I find your argument that " invasive or not, carp are here to stay" interesting. Let me take that a step further if I might. I may not believe in the following statements, but they will make my point I believe.

1) Invasive weeds are in Washington, bird, animals, wind, and water will move them around, so they "are here to stay", don't waste our money or time to eradicate them.

2) We need power, we have oil and coal, they are "here to stay", so let's not spend the money to research renewables and/or alternates.

3) We have dams, they "are here to stay", so stop trying to remove any of them.

4) Dangerous drugs "are here to stay", so why spend money or time to prevent them, eliminate them, or incarcerate users or dealers?

As you can see, you go down a slippery slope, once you take the position that something bad is "here to stay", you give permission to ignore the problem. Making carp a "food fish" did not make your friends, if you actually have any, start eating carp. They would have eaten them no matter what the official legal term was. Giving carp the title "food fish" serves to give them protection, in opposition to the wishes of Biologist who want to prevent or eliminate invasive species, in opposition to the majority of Washington Fishers, and in opposition to the State Fisheries Management that has had to kill off populations of them in the past.

As Stacie has suggested, alternates to wholesale eradication are being tried, like the sterile Tiger Muskies. Tigers work great on Tench, Perch, smaller panfish like sunfish, and Pikeminnows, but larger profile fish like Carp are not impacted by Tigers to any great extent. Perhaps with the new rules of 50" for keeping Tigers we will get some improvement in that area.

I will concur, carp are indeed "here to stay", but just like misquotes, I won't start liking them, I will continue to slap them, and I will use whatever preventative is available to prevent them from spreading.

[YellowBear]

I understand that in the mid west they are trying something new.
In the spring when Carp spawn, they have been isolating the spawning areas and using rotenone.
They are not trying to kill the hole body of water just the areas were the Carp are spawning. They say the results look good.