kokanee fish finder/depth/gps unit

[buzzbob]

Screenshot from 1670f Furuno on Odell Lake. Picture shows a large lake trout, 36" per accufish (actual length 35" C/R) chasing a 1.5 oz Zzinger and showing the thermocline (temp 65-45F) at 30'. Right margin below 0.00 is amplitude scope that is the live feed from transducer. Of the two lines going down, the left line is a #6 barrel swivel with 3' leader attached to Zzinger, the right line.

[Larry3215]

There is another sonar forum I hang out on and there are two guys that run multiple sonar setups on small boats! One of them runs Humminbird, Lowrance, Vexilar and 2 Garmin mfd's. I think the other guy runs all that minus the Vexilar, but he has three Garmin MFD's with two panoptix transducers. There are several guys that run all three Garmin Panoptix transducers on a bass boat - plus a 2D, side and downview on the trolling motor and on the transom. Thats $5000 just in transducers plus two or three $2600-$3600 mfd's.

You should see pictures of their transoms and electric trolling motors. Its looks like some one decorating a Christmas tree with transducers.

I dont know if I could handle that. Aside from the money - which I could never do - how do you remember how to navigate all the different menus - they are all so different!

Its fun dreaming about though.

[TrackerPro16]

Nice screen shot!
I have seen pics of boats decked out with many electronics and wonder if it would be 'too much' information? For me anyway. Not sure what I will go for at this point. Sometimes 'more' does not equal 'more fun' but it would be nice to think I am at least on a part of the lake that has fish... It will be interesting to see what displays are at the Puallup Sportsman Show.

[Larry3215]

Screenshot from 1670f Furuno on Odell Lake. Picture shows a large lake trout, 36" per accufish (actual length 35" C/R) chasing a 1.5 oz Zzinger and showing the thermocline (temp 65-45F) at 30'. Right margin below 0.00 is amplitude scope that is the live feed from transducer. Of the two lines going down, the left line is a #6 barrel swivel with 3' leader attached to Zzinger, the right line.

Furuno makes really nice stuff. They have the best rep in the industry for reliability too. I also really like some of their sonar features and display options. For example, I think they are one of the best for seeing thermoclines with the right transducer.

I have some nerdy technical issues with the acufish thing, there is a lot more marketing than science involved, but I wont go into that. Obviously sometimes its spot on.

I dont have time right now, but later I might want to ask you another nerdy question about those screen shots....

[hewesfisher]

Almost, almost went with Furuno with our current boat, but got a great deal on Raymarine gear instead. Upgraded from the A65classic to the new a-series two years ago and am very happy with performance. Only regret I have is not getting at least a 9" screen. It's an age thing.

[Larry3215]

At my age I tend to agree - screen size trumps almost everything else

[TrackerPro16]

True that! I went down to Bass Pro Shop and checked out the displays. I was interested in checking out a 7" model. Until I saw the 9". Then the 10"... I am pretty sure that screen size and clarity will be very high on the priority list. That is an issue I have with the Panoptix that I am sure they will be working on to improve is the image quality. Not that it is a deal breaker, but come on guys!

[buzzbob]

Unfortunately, most companies make landscape not portrait type screens. They turn a 5" screen into a 10" screen by making it wider side to side, not bottom to top. Since the active part of a 2D sonar is only the right border, the wider screens don't really have a benefit when used a fish finder. Simrad now has a 9" portrait sonar called the S2009 and Furuno's has a 8.4" portrait called the FCV 588. These are only fish finders only, no GPS, but have better vertical detail to watch the fish chase and bite the lure. Also, Furuno's HQ is in Camas, Wa.

[Larry3215]

True that! I went down to Bass Pro Shop and checked out the displays. I was interested in checking out a 7" model. Until I saw the 9". Then the 10"... I am pretty sure that screen size and clarity will be very high on the priority list. That is an issue I have with the Panoptix that I am sure they will be working on to improve is the image quality. Not that it is a deal breaker, but come on guys!

I was talking to Garmins head Panoptix engineer about something else when that subject came up. Its a lot like open array radar and sidescan transducers. In order to get sharper images, you need narrower "beam widths" and/or higher frequencies. That means larger physical arrays in radar and longer transducers for sideview. Ever seen a commercial mapping sideview towed array thats used in deep ocean mapping? They are huge!

The two Panoptix transducers that give the narrower beam width options are already huge compared to any transducers we use now. I didnt find out everything I wanted to know about Panoptix but there are other limitations that make it very difficult (read expensive) to get sharper images.

But, there is always the next development down the road...

[Larry3215]

I've started writing up a series of articles for NWFR on sonar - sorry for the delay Mike! In the process of reviewing some of the references Im going to be linking to, I re-read the sonar tutorial on the Lowrance website. They did an excellent job in covering many of the basics of traditional 2D sonar. There isnt much I can improve on other than filling in a few things they didnt cover. Its well worth reading if you havent seen it before.

http://support.lowrance.com/system/self ... LE_ID=2967" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is an excerpt from the section on cone angles, frequencies and fish detection vrs GAIN, etc. Understanding "Cone angles" is not as simple as most think.

Transducer Cone Angles
The transducer concentrates the sound into a beam. When a pulse of sound is transmitted from the transducer, it covers a wider area the deeper it travels. If you were to plot this on a piece of graph paper, you would find that it creates a cone shaped pattern, hence the term "cone angle." The sound is strongest along the center line or axis of the cone and gradually diminishes as you move away from the center.

In order to measure the transducer's cone angle, the power is first measured at the center or axis of the cone and then compared to the power as you move away from the center. When the power drops to half (or -3db[decibels] in electronic terms), the angle from that center axis is measured. The total angle from the -3db point on one side of the axis to the -3db point on the other side of the axis is called the cone angle.

This half power point (-3db) is a standard for the electronics industry and most manufacturers measure cone angle in this way, but a few use the -10db point where the power is 1/10 of the center axis power. This gives a greater angle, as you are measuring a point further away from the center axis. Nothing is different in transducer performance; only the system of measurement has changed. For example, a transducer that has an 8 degree cone angle at -3db would have a 16 degree cone angle at -10db.

Although the half power point is the standard for measuring cone angles, fish detection angles are much larger. Lowrance sonar units have very sensitive receivers and can detect return echoes from fish, structure or the bottom out to 60° or more. This means that the fish detection angle is 60° even though the cone angle is only 20°.

20 degree cone angle | 8 degree cone angle
Lowrance offers transducers with a variety of cone angles. Wide cone angles will show you more of the underwater world, at the expense of depth capability, since it spreads the transmitter's power out. Narrow cone angle transducers won't show you as much of what's around you, but will penetrate deeper than the wide cone. The narrow cone transducer concentrates the transmitter's power into a smaller area. A bottom signal on the sonar unit's display will be wider on a wide cone angle transducer than on a narrow one because you are seeing more of the bottom. The wide cone's area is much larger than the narrow cone.

High frequency (192 - 200 kHz) transducers come in either a narrow or wide cone angle. The wide cone angle should be used for most freshwater applications and the narrow cone angle should be used for all saltwater applications. Low frequency (50 kHz) sonar transducers are typically in the 30 to 45 degree range. Although a transducer is most sensitive inside its specified cone angle, you can also see echoes outside this cone; they just aren't as strong. The effective cone angle is the area within the specified cone where you can see echoes on the display. If a fish is suspended inside the transducer's cone, but the sensitivity is not turned up high enough to see it, then you have a narrow effective cone angle. You can vary the effective cone angle of the transducer by varying the receiver's sensitivity. With low sensitivity settings, the effective cone angle is narrow, showing only targets immediately beneath the transducer and a shallow bottom. Turning the sensitivity control up increases the effective cone angle, letting you see targets farther out to the sides.

[TrackerPro16]

Sigh... I have been watching videos and more videos, reading reviews, visiting manufacturer sites for trying to decide on a sonar unit. The majority of everyones videos, both pros and regular angler, don't do as much demonstrating as saying how great, game changing, bla, bla, bla. I don't want a talking head. Demonstrate the unit in different situations, touch on the features and stop showing your face! I did find some good ones but it is still hard to decide. Garmin Panoptix is pretty neat I must admit.

[Larry3215]

I know I sound like a Garmin salesman, but I will never give up Panoptix now that I have tried it. If I was told I could only have one transducer and one sonar type, I would give up everything except Panoptix forward view. Its that good. Nothing else is even in the ball park.

Of course the ideal setup is to have it all

[TrackerPro16]

If I may ask, where did you end up getting yours?

[Larry3215]

On line. Call or email Brian at BBG Marine.

https://bbgmarine.com/contact_us.html?z ... 521feaed2a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All the sonar manufacturers (and TV's appliances, etc) have a policy called MRP or MAP or something similar. What that basically means is that they do not allow any of their dealers to advertise a price below what ever the manufacturer sets as the base price. That means you wont ever see the newest sonar "advertised" at 20% off anywhere by any authorized dealer until the mfg decides to allow discounting - like when they are coming out with new models and need to clear the shelves of last years stuff.

However, they can still sell the new stuff for any price they want - as long as they dont advertise that sale price. For example, lots of places will tell you to "put the item in your cart to see the sale price".

Anyway, Brian discounts marine electronics from all brands - BUT - you have to call or email him to get the discounted prices. I shopped hard last year and he had the lowest over all price of anyone I checked with on the Garmin setup I wanted plus he did free shipping on my $3800 order. Full retail at the time was around $4500 and the next best quote I got was right at $4100 + shipping.

[Larry3215]

That price included the 7610xsv MFD, a GT51 600 watt CHIRP transom mount 2D/side/down transducer, the Panoptix PS21 and a NMEA2000 starter kit plus some extra odds and ends.