Obama and Clinton

[Gisteppo]

I think thats a great analogy about the personal best interests. You hit on something fundamentally at odds with the people. Decreasing the role of government, especially in the setting of your choice ( disaster relief) is flawed. The concept behind government (ask your local libertarian) is public safety and the rule of law. For every law and assistance program that comes out of organizations like FEMA and the congressional houses specifically for events like Andrew and Katrina, one can be rest assured that when the major midwestern flood or the eruption of a volcano will be assisted as well. Granted it is a bill for a single event, but keep in mind that its a precedent. Following this precedent, when the farmers of Montana lose everything to drought, Portland is destroyed from flooding, Maine is obliterated by a nor-easter, Minnesota is crushed in a freak winter storm, or Oklahoma has an abundance of tornadoes, the people of the USA have a place to turn. National guard troops (oh wait, they are all in Iraq), FEMA (whom I volunteered to go to Katrina for but was deemed too necessary in the region to go), congressional relief aid, and the ability to fund local agencies through declarations of emergency, the big bad government is there to get people back to an upright position, one that they can carry on from. It isn't welfare when you are allowing people to find their bootstraps, it is merely aid.

E

[kevinb]

Oh man. The Katrina mismanagement project:-$ I to was suppose to go down and last minute was pulled off. No explanation at all.
Now we'll see if this summer,we all head to Southern California and chase wildfires:-"
I'm returning the thread now:salut:

[lskiles]

I enjoy reading your posts on this sort of thing. They are so amusingly liberal. The most recent "quotes from McCain" post really opened my eyes about him. I had no idea he and I saw eye to eye on so many issues. I do not like to voice my opinion in these threads much because I do not have time to really get all my thoughts down and then to answer some of the "point/counterpoint" I would have to neglect too many of the things I really enjoy and I am not going to convince you that we need to stop enabling people to not work and not find help in time of need from their family, church or community and you are certainly not going to convince me that we need to force people, through government redistribution of wealth, to help the "less fortunate" among us.

It isn't welfare when you are allowing people to find their bootstraps, it is merely aid.

E

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

The other day I heard a quote from Obama where he stated that he supports a woman being able to kill her child in the womb because if his daughter makes a mistake he does not want her to be PUNISHED with a child...that speaks volumes about who he is and how he views people.

That picture of him standing casually by while the national anthem plays disgusts me.

[Gisteppo]

LS, your completely right, I am a liberal, and make no bones about it. What I deeply and truly love about this country is that people from both sides of the aisle can be completely vocal about their opinions. I never hope to change your mind, as I know you are dyed in the wool. What I hope to do is interest those in the middle to open their eyes to candidates, learn more about the process, and get involved.

I think the country is ready for a change, and I don't see McCain providing that. He is too closely related to Bush and the Republican complex (despite his unearned "maverick" status) to really initiate what this country needs right now.

I would love to see this quote you speak of, please do whatever you have to do to provide a link, a quote, a clip, whatever you have so I can see when Obama may have actually said that about abortion.

E

[lskiles]

I would love to see this quote you speak of, please do whatever you have to do to provide a link, a quote, a clip, whatever you have so I can see when Obama may have actually said that about abortion.

E

Here is a news story from UPI that contains the quote.

News story

[HillbillyGeek]

LS, your completely right, I am a liberal, and make no bones about it. What I deeply and truly love about this country is that people from both sides of the aisle can be completely vocal about their opinions. I never hope to change your mind, as I know you are dyed in the wool. What I hope to do is interest those in the middle to open their eyes to candidates, learn more about the process, and get involved.

I think the country is ready for a change, and I don't see McCain providing that. He is too closely related to Bush and the Republican complex (despite his unearned "maverick" status) to really initiate what this country needs right now.

I would love to see this quote you speak of, please do whatever you have to do to provide a link, a quote, a clip, whatever you have so I can see when Obama may have actually said that about abortion.

E

Here's the quote:
"Look, I got two daughters — 9 years old and 6 years old," he said. "I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."

Here's a link:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... ions_.html

(You can find a plethora of links by doing a google search using the keywords "obama abortion punished".)

Abortion is a historically gray area than can be very divisive. It would be nice if the majority of Americans weren't stupid enough to cast their vote based on ONE issue, but simple-minded people like simple answers (and slogans). A few of these "mega issues" are: God, guns, abortion, prayer in school, gay marriage, evolution, entitlement programs, etc. It is truly sad that people can be totally focused on a single issue and refuse to see the bigger picture. GW got elected the second time because of gay marriage! Who gives a crap about gay marriage??? And even if you do actually care about gay marriage, is that issue bigger than a fraudulent war or the economy? Give me a break!

Regarding abortion, here are a few gray areas to think about:
1) Is the "morning after" pill an abortion? Are those two cells really a human being, or are they just a blueprint?
2) When a woman is raped, should she be forced to have the baby?
3) What if the mother's life is in danger if the baby is carried to full-term? Should she be forced to take that risk?

Very few things in this world are black and white. Unfortunately, many people try to make things black and white in an effort to keep them simple. Recognizing the abstract and nebulous nature of an issue requires more thought, and heaven forbid we actually use that gray matter between our ears!

"My mind is made up -- don't confuse me with facts"

[A9]

Ahhh cool stuff, nice little political debating going on here...
Good stuff fellas...

[lskiles]

Abortion is a historically gray area than can be very divisive. It would be nice if the majority of Americans weren't stupid enough to cast their vote based on ONE issue, but simple-minded people like simple answers (and slogans). A few of these "mega issues" are: God, guns, abortion, prayer in school, gay marriage, evolution, entitlement programs, etc. It is truly sad that people can be totally focused on a single issue and refuse to see the bigger picture. GW got elected the second time because of gay marriage! Who gives a crap about gay marriage??? And even if you do actually care about gay marriage, is that issue bigger than a fraudulent war or the economy? Give me a break!

Regarding abortion, here are a few gray areas to think about:
1) Is the "morning after" pill an abortion? Are those two cells really a human being, or are they just a blueprint?
2) When a woman is raped, should she be forced to have the baby?
3) What if the mother's life is in danger if the baby is carried to full-term? Should she be forced to take that risk?

Very few things in this world are black and white. Unfortunately, many people try to make things black and white in an effort to keep them simple. Recognizing the abstract and nebulous nature of an issue requires more thought, and heaven forbid we actually use that gray matter between our ears!

"My mind is made up -- don't confuse me with facts"
[/size]

Oh, I knew I should not have posted here in the first place...

1) Is the "morning after" pill an abortion? Yes, what is it besides a child? A product of conception...so am I.
2) When a woman is raped, should she be forced to have the baby? I have never understood this question. Should we kill the baby to punish the rapist? There are a lot of people out there who want to adopt babies if a gal is "reminded of the rape every time she looks at the baby."
3) What if the mother's life is in danger if the baby is carried to full-term? Should she be forced to take that risk? When does this happen? In the twenty years before the Roe V Wade decision it was legal to abort a baby in this instance and there are no records of any legal abortions for this cause. It is just a red herring. A smoke screen.

Should we allow the killing of a child because it is the wrong sex? We do.
Should we allow the killing of a child because the parents would be inconvienced? We do.
Should we allow the killing of a child because the mother just can not keep her pants on? We do.

As far as single issue voters go when you see someone taking more fish than the law allows or taking fish when the law does not allow it, would you then hire that same person to fix your home or do your taxes? No, because it speaks to his character. The bible (James 1:8) says that "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." When you have no regard for human life in one instance why would I assume you have regard for human life in any other.

I guess I am just another "simple-minded person"

**folding up his portable soap box he stashes it back under the desk and resumes working**

[Gisteppo]

Outstanding. I think thats an interesting quote, and one I have firsthand knowledge of.

First off, Obama's abortion comments:

Trust women to make own decisions on partial-birth abortion
Q: What us your view on the decision on partial-birth abortion and your reaction to most of the public agreeing with the court's holding?

A: I think that most Americans recognize that this is a profoundly difficult issue for the women and families who make these decisions. They don't make them casually. And I trust women to make these decisions in conjunction with their doctors and their families and their clergy. And I think that's where most Americans are. Now, when you describe a specific procedure that accounts for less than 1% of the abortions that take place, then naturally, people get concerned, and I think legitimately so. But the broader issue here is: Do women have the right to make these profoundly difficult decisions? And I trust them to do it. There is a broader issue: Can we move past some of the debates around which we disagree and can we start talking about the things we do agree on? Reducing teen pregnancy; making it less likely for women to find themselves in these circumstances.
Source: 2007 South Carolina Democratic primary debate, on MSNBC Apr 26, 2007

I think that shows he supports abortion in certain situations, but wants to come together with the right on prevention over reaction.

Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives.
Vote to adopt an amendment to the Senate's 2006 Fiscal Year Budget that allocates $100 million for the prevention of unintended pregnancies. A YES vote would expand access to preventive health care services that reduce unintended pregnancy (including teen pregnancy), reduce the number of abortions, and improve access to women's health care. A YES vote would:

* Increase funding and access to family planning services
* Funds legislation that requires equitable prescription coverage for contraceptives under health plans
* Funds legislation that would create and expand teen pregnancy prevention programs and education programs concerning emergency contraceptives

Reference: Appropriation to expand access to preventive health care services; Bill S.Amdt. 244 to S Con Res 18 ; vote number 2005-75 on Mar 17, 2005

That was a bipartisan effort to reduce teen pregnancy, and he was on board.

I think that is a good summation of his opinions. I am actually much in agreement with what he has to say.

On your comments just now:

2) When a woman is raped, should she be forced to have the baby? I have never understood this question. Should we kill the baby to punish the rapist? There are a lot of people out there who want to adopt babies if a gal is "reminded of the rape every time she looks at the baby."

While I applaud your stance, the reality is that adoption in the US is an infrequent, imperfect system that often sends children born under these circumstances to 18 years of foster care in as many as 20 different homes until they graduate high school. More on this later.

3) What if the mother's life is in danger if the baby is carried to full-term? Should she be forced to take that risk? When does this happen? In the twenty years before the Roe V Wade decision it was legal to abort a baby in this instance and there are no records of any legal abortions for this cause. It is just a red herring. A smoke screen.

This is an outright lie. The reason I say that is you can make the argument using the existing statistics and still have ground to stand on. In the Guttmacher study, the number of "hard case" abortions is around 5%. Also bear in mind that in order to have statistics, people have to have an abortion and admit to things like rape and incest. There has been wide acknowledgment of "coat hanger" abortions, lying about the reason for the abortion, and carrying a child to term, only to deliver it into a dumpster or plastic bag.

Should we allow the killing of a child because it is the wrong sex? We do.

This is the bastion of the unscrupulous physician, as it is not protected in Roe v. Wade, and is not the norm. Punish the provider.

I have been party to two close friend's abortion decisions. These were not made lightly, and were influenced by me at the time AGAINST doing it. You see, I was a Republican at the time, as I was raised. Both opted to take action. Both were under 17 years of age. Both regret the circumstances and still have deep scars, but to this day, both feel the correct decision was made. One was pressured into sex and had conception, the other had a conception failure (condom) resulting in impregnation.

Also bear in mind I work in the poorest neighborhood in Spokane, and one that rivals the poorest neighborhoods in the state of Wa. I see children pregnant as early as 13. I see the foster homes that take in as many as 11 children because adoption options are so limited and financially out of reach for most people. I volunteer for a program called Fantasy Flight for underprivileged children ( http://www.spokesmanreview.com/blogs/vi ... ?postID=84 and http://unitedairlinesfantasyflight.com/default.aspx ) whom are in the aborted child demographics you refer to. I see how hard their lives are, and who they become as adults. I would throw out the 20% statistic. 20% of the children living in these households, unwanted or otherwise unprepared for, raised by teens, raised in foster homes, etc, 20% of them will become functioning members of our society. 80% will fall into the traps their parents found, and continue the cycle....

The bible (James 1:8) says that "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." When you have no regard for human life in one instance why would I assume you have regard for human life in any other.

OUTSTANDING bible verse! I think this is cutting right to the heart of the McCain campaign. Prolonging pre-emptive war, which solicits the killing of not only those we fight against (some statistics are estimating more than 700,000 Iraqi casualties to date), but those who fight for us, our brave Soldiers. Is this not in the same mold as the above statement? Willing to kill our able bodied soldiers for a pre-emptive war, but unwilling to give the fetus new life in the brain of a Parkinson's sufferer?

If the bible is the playing field, then here you go:

Ecclesiastes 6:3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.

Thus, abortion is better than certain lives lived, from the Word of God.

E

[cavdad45]

Gisteppo, do you really like Obama? Do you really see him as a good choice for America? Or do you hit the DNC talking points because he is the lesser of the evils placed before this country?


Does every vote really count? Florida and Michigan. But then again the Dems candidate will be decided by Super Delegates not voters anyway. Because the politburo of the DNC decided that voters were to stupid to pick candidates and installed this un-democratic system to ensure the party's rightful place over those they intend to rule.

Who does the party hope to disenfranchise more? Women or blacks. Are the Super Delegates going to hand it to Obama to avoid the riots that Al Sharpton is promising for Denver if the nomination goes to Hillary. She does have the popular vote (but then again 1/12 of the voters don't count; Michigan and Florida) and has won the real key states that are needful for November.

I for one am enjoying the blood bath and look forward to more as the convention draws near. Pass the popcorn!!!

[HillbillyGeek]

Being a black and white person sure is convenient; unrealistic but convenient nonetheless.

Lskiles, when you make a omelet, do you make it with 3 eggs or 3 chickens?

You said "When you have no regard for human life in one instance why would I assume you have regard for human life in any other." Interesting philosophy... Since we are created in God's image, does this philosophy also apply to God? How much regard does your version of God have for human life? Let's take a look at cruelty and violence in the first four books of the Bible:

Genesis
1. God likes Abel's dead animals better than Cain's fruits and vegetables. Why? Well, no reason is given, but it probably has something to do with the amount of pain, blood, and gore involved. 4:3-5

2. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8

3. God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

4. God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

5. God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

6. Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor." 8:20

7. To free Lot from captivity, Abram sends an army of slaves to pursue and smite his captors. 14:14-15

8. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10

9. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6

10. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Pet.2:7-8. 19:7-8

11. God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24

12. God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7

13. God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13

14. Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31

15. "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." I don't know what the "terror of God" is, but I'll bet it isn't pleasant. 35:5

16. "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7

17. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10

18. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24

19. Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19

Exodus
20. Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking. 2:11-12

21. God threatens to kill the Pharaoh's firstborn son. 4:23

22. God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26

23. God will make sure that Pharaoh does not listen to Moses, so that he can kill Egyptians with his armies. 7:4

24. "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." Who else could be so cruel and unjust? 7:5, 17

25. God tells Moses and Aaron to smite the river and turn it into blood. 7:17-24

26. The fifth plague: all cattle in Egypt die. 9:2-6

27. The sixth plague: boils and blains upon man and beast. 9:9-12

28. "For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth." Who else but the biblical god could be so cruel? 9:14

29. God kills all Egyptian cattle with hail. 9:19-20

30. The seventh plague is hail. "And the hail smote throughout the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast." 9:22-25

31. These verses clearly show that the mass murder of innocent children by God was premeditated. 11:4-6 (see 12:29-30)

32. God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7

33. God explains to Moses that he intends to "smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast. 12:12

34. After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." Finally, he runs out of little babies to kill, so he slaughters the firstborn cattle, too. 12:29

35. To commemorate the divine massacre of the Egyptian children, Moses instructs the Israelites to "sacrifice to the Lord all that openeth the matrix" -- all the males, that is. God has no use for dead, burnt female bodies. 13:2, 12, 15

36. After hardening Pharaoh's heart a few more times, God drowns Pharaoh's army in the sea 14:4-28

37. Moses and the people sing praises to their murderous god. 15:1-19

38. "The Lord is a man of war." Indeed, judging from his acts in the Old Testament, he is a vicious warlike monster. 15:3

39. God's right hand dashes people in pieces. 15:6

40. Joshua, with God's approval, kills the Amalekites "with the edge of the sword." 17:13

41. "The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." 17:14-16

42. Any person or animal that touches Mt. Sinai shall be stoned to death or "shot through." 19:12-13

43. God gives instructions for killing and burning animals. He says that if we will make such "burnt offerings," he will bless us for it. What kind of mind would be pleased by the killing and burning of innocent animals? 20:24

44. A child who hits or curses his parents must be executed. 21:15,17

45. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 21:24-25

46. If an ox gores someone, then both the ox and its owner must die. 21:28-29

47. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18

48. "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death." Is it really necessary to kill such people? Couldn't we just send them to counseling or something? 22:19

49. "He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the bibli

[Gisteppo]

Cav, Im not really a talking point guy myself. You will find that anything I dig up is generally just a comment, question, or otherwise published bit of data that I have come across. I do believe he is the best candidate of the three, as Hil is more dynasty politics and McCain has too much of the Bush policy that he has to follow through with to keep the donors happy.

I dont like what happened with Mich and Fla, but they wrote themselves into that corner by changing their primary status without going through the typical processes in the parties. I think they should seat the delegates according to the popular vote nationwide so they don't favor either candidate. The point of Supers is not to manipulate the will of the people, it is a system which protects the final outcome by being able to supercede votes cast in feb if the candidate does something illegal later in the process. I agree that its crap, it should be one person, one vote, but thats the system as it stands today.

The Rev doesn't have the clout he wishes he did. The only one really ranting about lust for riots in Denver is Rush Limbaugh. I dont think it will be that way, as Hillary had her ass handed to her tuesday. Expect a tail-tucking finish to the campaign by her, and the handover to happen sometime in June.

Then they can get to the business of offering their platform.

E

[cavdad45]

Good answer. I respect that.

[EastsideRedneck]

Holy crap... I can't believe I made it through this thread thus far! I guess I will throw in my .02 and then some

I am of the opinion that government has no place governing the following:
Religion
Sex between consenting legal adults

It makes my blood boil everytime I hear Christians try and impose their dogma on the world's populace, even more so in the politcal arena. religion should be a personal choice, not a political or cultural imposition.

Abortion... being a male I don't have the right to truly comment. If people were lining up around the block to adopt children then why are there so many orphans?

Social welfare... Entitlement programs are the worst thing to happen to the United States, period. Whomever thought it was a good idea to provide free services to non-tax payers should be shot, twice. Our government is in the business of rewarding those who choose to not take steps to secure their own future. There is no such thing as a free lunch and there are hundreds of thousands of Americans who need to pay up. If you cannot afford to support your current family, you have absolutely no right to increase it on the public dime. I do feel that the governemtn should be involved in domestic reconstruction efforts in the case of natural/political/militaristic disaster. If you are under 35 and homeless/ terminally unemployed, enlist in the armed forces or join the peace corps. Mandatory federal service is the answer. For those who oppose military involvement, there is always the postal service, IRS, justice, etc... What could possibly be wrong with providing every American with a job and basic skillset? After the requisite term of, say, two years they could choose to remain in civil/military service or pursue a gainful career in the private sector. For those seeking higher education the service could be deferred until graduation. This is the only scenario I feel a large national government could be tolerated or warranted.

Iraq... I do not think any of the candidates has the slightest idea how on earth they will withdraw troops from Iraq. I'll believe it when I see it, at least not in 90 days or even a year. We should seriously evaluate how well our form of democracy has done for us before we impose it on others. You can't expect an entire culture to change overnight. It is easy to overdose on freedom.

Which candidate could make any of this a reality? Not a single one of them. Who is going to p!$$ me off the least? Probably Obama. I initially vied for Romney, then McCain, and now I am settling for Obama. I really would prefer someone with real military experience to be the Commander-in-Chief, but I don't think anyone could fudge it any worse than has already been done. McCain seems to resent the military more than he supports it. I'll be the first guy to admit I am not a fan of GW, but I would take him over Al Gore every day of my natural born life. Change is absolutely necessary, but I don't see any profound changes in policy from any of the current candidates. I almost think a single-term lame duck President is in order. America needs a cooling off period to normalize and heal itself; too much policy manipulation will only throw us into further distress. Maybe I should be rooting for Hillary, she has proven that she is an accompished filibusterer who is successful at passing off insignificant policy as profound experience. When ever I think of Hillary's White House "experience" I always think of the Chiefs and Officers wives' who felt that their husbands rank was somehow bestowed upon them. Absolutely rediculous.

[Gisteppo]

Eastside...

Abortion... being a male I don't have the right to truly comment. If people were lining up around the block to adopt children then why are there so many orphans?

=d> =d> =d>

Im with you 90% on the rest of the post, as I have seen social programs work in many situations in my neighborhood as well as my family. I have a cousin who was hangin out with the rocks at the bottom, the state offered a retraining course where his tuition and living expenses were given to him via a grant, and he took it. That allowed him to keep a roof over his wife and son, go to school, and now he is a surveyor who has given more back than he has taken from the community. They do work, but I agree that the screws need to be tightened a bit on the leaks.

I can't say that I think Obama is a lame duck, however. Look at FDR, he was a one term state senator and one term governor, but had one of the most important presidencies in our history, developing things like the CCC, which have benefited those of us here in the PNW to this day. Experience wasn't the primary tool of his candidacy, leadership was.

I like that you bring up mandatory federal service. I completely, 100% agree. Offer three paths: military service, nonmilitary aid, or public service. One takes you to the guns and ammo club, one takes you to diplomatic and rescue situations abroad, and one puts you in the heart of your country doing projects that benefit the people. The Swedish model is similar, and having a few friends there, they speak highly of their two year commitment and the life experience they had doing it. It would be a small price to pay for a massive benefit. We could re-institute the CCC programs, building and improving parks and our forests, offer aid in the form of real people to disaster relief in areas like Myanmar and the tsunami belt, and have a stronger recruiting tool to start replenishing our horribly depleted military.

Good post!

E

[Marc Martyn]

Iraq... I do not think any of the candidates has the slightest idea how on earth they will withdraw troops from Iraq. I'll believe it when I see it, at least not in 90 days or even a year.

Reenact the draft again. We would be out of there in a year. When all Americans are effected by this war, then there will be a public uprising. Look around you in your daily life. Does the general public look like it is at war? Not hardly.

[lskiles]

Being a black and white person sure is convenient]"When you have no regard for human life in one instance why would I assume you have regard for human life in any other."[/i] Interesting philosophy... Since we are created in God's image, does this philosophy also apply to God? How much regard does your version of God have for human life? Let's take a look at cruelty and violence in the first four books of the Bible:
...

Hey HG,
I use three unfertilized eggs to make an omelet.

I do not see where I get to be a "black and white" person. Yes, there are certain irrefutable facts in this life, but there is also some gray and it is my opinion that we are judged more correctly on how we handle the gray than the black and white.

Where did you get this list? Atheists R Us. I have never seen such a complete list of distortions and misleading analysis. I do not have the time to go through the whole list, so I will just comment on the first ten points of the list.

Genesis
1. God likes Abel's dead animals better than Cain's fruits and vegetables. Why? Well, no reason is given, but it probably has something to do with the amount of pain, blood, and gore involved. 4:3-5
--If you honestly read the account you will see that Abel obeyed God in his sacrifice in giving the “first fruits” and Cain disobeyed God in bringing “some of the fruits” for his gift. God favors obedience.

2. Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8
--If you read verses 6-7 you will see that God warns Cain that if he does good he will be accepted, but that “sin is crouching at the door” and it will master him. Sin is disobedience to God. When Cain killed Abel it was jealousy, but it was clearly outside the will of God.

3. God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17
--I just looked at thirteen versions of the bible in Genesis 6:7 and I do not see the word anger. What I read is sorrow and in some versions I see he repents that he made man. When we read the preceding verse we see why He was grieved. “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” When you have one bad element in a lake you have to kill-off the entire lake to ensure you have eradicated the problem. Same thing.

4. God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
--See explanation for # #3.

5. God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23
--Cute little rhyme. A little inaccurate, but cute all the same. “…only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. He did provide for “restocking.”

6. Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor." 8:20
--This is a common misconception reinforced by inaccurate songs and stories mostly for children. When we read Genesis 7:2 “’You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female…” You see there were seven, not two. I know that this is hard to understand, but it was the sacrifice, even though Noah was killing what should be the start of his herd he knew that God would honor his faith in God to provide.

7. To free Lot from captivity, Abram sends an army of slaves to pursue and smite his captors. 14:14-15
--I do not get this point at all. In the thirteen versions I have available it says either “trained men” or “trained servants” I do not see where it says slaves. It also says he defeated them. “Smite” infers death to all, but defeat infers…well, he won.

8. God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
--This was not “needless slaughter” it was an important ritual in that the persons entering into a covenant or a contract were willing to give up part of their wealth (the animals) to show their sincerity in making a promise.

9. Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6
--Now I think this list gets a little weird in that I thought the whole point of this list was trying to show how God was cruel and had no regard for human life. Just the opposite is shown when you read the verses that follow:
7 Now the angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 Then the angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.” 10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.” 11 The angel of the LORD said to her further,
“Behold, you are with child,
And you will bear a son;
And you shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.

10. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Pet.2:7-8. 19:7-8
--It is not the temptation or the sin that ultimately separates us from God. It is the way we deal with sin. Judas and Peter were guilty of the same sin, betrayal of Christ. Judas could only see his sin whereas Peter could see the forgiveness of God. 2 Corinthians 7:10 reads thusly: “For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.”
Even the Apostle Paul said at one point that he was the “chief of sinners” (1 Timothy 1:15-16) and in another the one “who Jesus loved” (John 13:23). It is not the sin, but the repentance from that sin that makes the man.
Another example is when you read Judges 6 you find Gideon hiding from his enemies threshing wheat in a winepress and the angle of the Lord address him as “valiant warrior” although he was not. God could see he would be.


Hey Gisteppo,

Ecclesiastes 6:3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.


I had frankly never heard that argument before you brought it up before in another post.
The problem lies in that how do we decide who, before they are born, will meet these criteria.
There is a saying, “Anyone can count the number of seeds in an apple, only God can count the number of apples in a seed.”
When the bible says, “You shall not kill.” The experts in language tell us that this means that you shall not take innocent life. What is more innocent than an infant?

I do not pretend to be an expert in this area, but the statistics you site concerning children in foster care and not being adopted. Are they not mostly abandoned by or removed from the home of their parents as young children, not as infants. I personally know of three families that had to go o

[Marc Martyn]

The following report was sent to The Committee on the Budget in the U.S. Senate by the director of Congressional Budget Office. On that committee and receiving a copy of this report was the Honorable John McCain, Ranking Member.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/89xx/doc8971 ... Letter.pdf


Mr. McCain shrugs his shoulders and says that we could be in Iraq for maybe 100 more years.

Another interesting read:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib ... 0dean.html

[Gisteppo]

LS, I definitely enjoy your enviable knowledge of the bible. Only the devout and the zealot know the bible verse as well as that, and I am guessing you fall into the devout. I think what is interesting about quoting bible scripture is interpretation. It falls in the same region as church to church differences in interpretation (go to a Lutheran church one service and a 4 square church the next one, you will see what I mean). Very interesting read on your quotes indeed.

To the heart of my point, using your quotes:

Ecclesiastes 6:3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.


I had frankly never heard that argument before you brought it up before in another post.
The problem lies in that how do we decide who, before they are born, will meet these criteria.

When we read the preceding verse we see why He was grieved. “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” When you have one bad element in a lake you have to kill-off the entire lake to ensure you have eradicated the problem. Same thing.

While contextually they are different, conceptually they are the same. In the case of abortion, we cannot see the purity or the impurity of man before birth, but the big guy can. By closing the door completely on abortion, you may save some innocents, but you also allow the wicked to be born. Consider it this way; God has given us free will for a reason, and it is considered both our greatest attribute and our worst enemy. Wouldn't you consider that at least a portion of abortions could be the hand of God reaching down to the afflicted mother, knowing that the child will be wicked? By enacting a law against it, we are removing free will (minus some alleyway abortions) and potentially the will of God. I know it will be a hard argument to consider given your faith, but please give it some prayer and meditation, because to me it is the case. I know that on occasion, the deeply religious spend a great deal of prayer time deciding and following through with an abortion. Please give it some thought, and don't just pass it off and listen to your church leader's next sermon.

E

[kevinb]

I'm personally a pro-life guy but there are certain situations that I believe abortion is neccesary.
My biggest gripe with abortion is when its used as a form a birth control. I believe in a woman's choice to "Wrap it up".
However,I won't be foolish and let a single issue like this keep me from looking at the entire picture.
I use to like Mccain but the more I learn about him,the more I look somewhere else. He has made it clear...their will be no change,just more of the same. I don't know about you,but I can't take another Bush/Cheney style White House. These two clowns would be in prison if it wasn't for their abuse of power.(Hey,I see Bush got Scooter out of trouble...what a guy:cheers: ) Its time to have a government accountable to the people.