My Stance on Native Steelhead, what I'm going to do about it

[Weekend-warrior17]

to AJ's dad, a much better fix for those nets stretched across the rivers, hay bales with rebar stuck in them, very low profile, hard to see them coming. Those nets are a large part of the problem but not the only problem. Purse Seiner's raping the ocean often consider steelhead and salmon as collateral damage. THEY SHOULD OUTLAW ANY NETTING OF FISH ANYWHERE!!

Abandoned nets are terrible I wouldn't suggest you do that. The Tribe will just give out another net for free and they'll sett that , just leaving the ruined net to continue endless distruction.

I'm sure some already realise this but this is for the other percentage. Without the nets how do you figure all these hatcheries will continue producing these runs of Hatchery fish most of us are targeting? ( yeah I know it's off topic from native steel but the native steelhead are also being netted for similar reasons) Mostly all the hatcheries in Washington are run by the tribes, y'all can't forget that's how they make alot of there income, through "Mother Nature". There is a reason for everything as much as I wish nets were off the river it likely won't ever happen. Improved managment is what we need! Let the tribe get there 50% that they "deserve" and stop complaining about it there's no reason to it's the way it's going to be ( signed off long ago, thanks wdfw appreciate it). In my opinion If y'all are looking to point fingers wdfw holds ALOT of the blame. Remember the rules about pointing fingers though.

[natetreat]

Nets are only a symptom of the problem. The problem is that we think it's acceptable to harvest any wild fish in the first place. The tribes are going to net, as is their right. But we need to change the quotas. It's not acceptable for 2,000 fish in the Hoh to be escapement. It's not acceptable that we allow sport fishermen to retain wild steelhead because it's politically convenient. It's not acceptable that we close our Puget Sound rivers to even catch and release fishing, when the runs out here are seemingly healthier than those on the rivers out west.

The reason we manage our fisheries is for commercial catch as well as for sport catch. That's not going to change, and I don't think it should. But wild steelhead are not commercially viable right now, and the way we're going, the steelhead need to be nearly extinct before we'll admit it. The tribes are a big part of the problem, as co-managers, they insist on harvesting fish that don't even provide much of an economic benefit to them.

" Since 2004, the year of the Commission’s conservation decision for wild steelhead, the tribe has taken 82.4% of
the harvest and the sport fishery has been forced to close early in two seasons to assure the run made escapement"

The tribes don't care about the Boldt decision, they don't abide by quotas. If guides like me and sport fishermen like you guys put pressure on the state to actually enforce the treaty terms, it would be a huge step in the right direction for conservation. Nets aren't going to go away, but even with the nets in, we can still work for better runs. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I see pictures of native fish, from anyone. I love catch and release fishing for these big fish, they're easy to catch, they're actually in the rivers in catchable numbers and they are big and feisty to boot.

IHere's a great picture of the problem: http://www.wildsteelheadcoalition.org/R ... -DickBurge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While I don't agree with many of the positions of the Wild Steelhead Coalition, they articulate the problem quite well. The tribe should get 50% of the harvest-able fish. We just need to enforce the agreements that already exist, and stop letting political pressure dictate what escapement is acceptable.

[Bay wolf]

I agree Nate, but the issue is a lot more complex than simple political pressure. The state is trying to negotiate with sovereign nations, not just a coalition of citizens. The tribes in some cases don't even show up for the meetings, saying instead that they are just going to do what they did last time (what ever that means). Enforcement is even dicier. WDFW does not have the man power to have enforcement officers on every river every day counting the number and type of fish pulled out of a net. Add to that, that most all tribal net fishermen take the fish on reservation boundaries and the enforcement jurisdiction then fall to the tribal law enforcement, many of whom are directly related to the fishermen. Tribal customs are also much different in viewing the "severity" of such crimes.

Unfortunately, unless we reach a total collapse in the fisheries (and we may be seeing that now) neither side of this issue will change more than cosmetically.

And all the while we are debating the issues of tribal netting vs catch and release mortality rates vs hatchery vs native and all the other minutia. The multi-country factory ships are catching millions and millions of tons of fish right off our coasts and NOBODY is paying any attention! They are in fact, such a Goliath coalition that they are essentially untouchable at this time.

Sorry for the diatribe and for hijacking the thread. Mods, feel free to delete this post if needed.

[natetreat]

I agree Nate, but the issue is a lot more complex than simple political pressure. The state is trying to negotiate with sovereign nations, not just a coalition of citizens. The tribes in some cases don't even show up for the meetings, saying instead that they are just going to do what they did last time (what ever that means). Enforcement is even dicier. WDFW does not have the man power to have enforcement officers on every river every day counting the number and type of fish pulled out of a net. Add to that, that most all tribal net fishermen take the fish on reservation boundaries and the enforcement jurisdiction then fall to the tribal law enforcement, many of whom are directly related to the fishermen. Tribal customs are also much different in viewing the "severity" of such crimes.

Unfortunately, unless we reach a total collapse in the fisheries (and we may be seeing that now) neither side of this issue will change more than cosmetically.

And all the while we are debating the issues of tribal netting vs catch and release mortality rates vs hatchery vs native and all the other minutia. The multi-country factory ships are catching millions and millions of tons of fish right off our coasts and NOBODY is paying any attention! They are in fact, such a Goliath coalition that they are essentially untouchable at this time.

Sorry for the diatribe and for hijacking the thread. Mods, feel free to delete this post if needed.

I'm well aware of the tribal netting sovereign nation problem, and the solution is to make them abide by their treaty. Enforce it. It's easy, just politically inconvenient.

There isn't much I can do to stop chinese trawlers from stealing our fish, but there is something that I can do about the tribes, even if it's to put my money where my mouth is, and yell at everyone in charge.

I don't think that pessimism and apathy are going to help anything; there are things that we can do if we care enough.

[Norm]

How are officials who are put into office with tribal money going to turn around and enforce the tribes to abide by the treaty?

[natetreat]

Because we don't vote for them anymore.

[Norm]

I wish it were that easy. Its hard to run against someone with unlimited funding

[spoonman]

Heres an easy way to tell if they are bought and paid for by the tribes. They all have a D next to their name. The ones with an R next to them aint really any better since most of them are bought and paid for by big developers who dont give a crap about destroying habitat to make a buck. Sooo pick your poison I guess

[Bay wolf]

Nate, I admire your zeal. And I hope others will take your lead and start screaming about the state of our fisheries as well.

However, I don't understand your statement about "make them abide by their treaty". What part of the treaty are you referring to?

Not wanting to get in a pissing contest over this. I just want to understand your position better.

I attended the North of Falcon meting today, and I can tell you, Tribes netting in the rivers is not going anywhere, anytime soon. That's not pessimism, that's reality. Nobody, and I mean nobody in positions of power even want to talk about it. Not local, state or even national. Heck, the organization that enforces the ESA rules (NOAA) won't even consider another run at the tribes in court! Their position is it's the States issue.

[natetreat]

Nate, I admire your zeal. And I hope others will take your lead and start screaming about the state of our fisheries as well.

However, I don't understand your statement about "make them abide by their treaty". What part of the treaty are you referring to?

Not wanting to get in a pissing contest over this. I just want to understand your position better.

I attended the North of Falcon meting today, and I can tell you, Tribes netting in the rivers is not going anywhere, anytime soon. That's not pessimism, that's reality. Nobody, and I mean nobody in positions of power even want to talk about it. Not local, state or even national. Heck, the organization that enforces the ESA rules (NOAA) won't even consider another run at the tribes in court! Their position is it's the States issue.

The treaty calls for a 50/50 fish split of the harvest-able fish. My belief is that their are not harvest-able numbers. I would be happy if we closed down all fishing out there until we can get good numbers. I also believe that the tribes don't even report all the fish that they catch, although I can't prove it.

I am not anti-gillnet. I recognize the right of tribes to fish, and I think that if we could stop the animosity between sport fishermen and the tribes we'd be making a step in the right direction. If we could give them big number of hatchery fish for the nets and let the wild fish alone, it would be nice.

If the tribe influence is about money, why don't we buy the fish from them at higher than market value. Pay them to keep their nets out. If we continue to stop making escapement, we need to go to court to enforce our current agreements. We need to pressure restaurants to stop buying tribal fish.

The one thing that I do know is that if we continue with business as usual, guiding clients out there day after day, we're just waiting for an inevitable crash. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I see all these pictures of fish out of the water, bleeding from their gills. There are avenues to do something about it, but people just aren't doing it. I do know that I'm not going to be part of the problem, I'm going to be part of the solution.

[Norm]

If we give them higher numbers of hatchery fish then they would be given more chances at netting wild fish. Just look at the pink fishery, there is so many of them that the tribes get to fish 7 days a week. They use that as an excuse to net kings and summer steelhead since they just throw the dead pinks back in the water. I guess my point is when they are fishing a healthy stock they are also taking from unhealthy runs that will never be strong enough with them on the river. I fish the Skagit so much that I might as well live on it. I would give my left nut to hear that they will open the river up for 30-80lb summer kings. This years forecast is higher than previous years but we will still not get a fishery because the bi-catch of Chinook will be too high when they are netting all the sockeye and silvers.

[natetreat]

If we give them higher numbers of hatchery fish then they would be given more chances at netting wild fish. Just look at the pink fishery, there is so many of them that the tribes get to fish 7 days a week. They use that as an excuse to net kings and summer steelhead since they just throw the dead pinks back in the water. I guess my point is when they are fishing a healthy stock they are also taking from unhealthy runs that will never be strong enough with them on the river. I fish the Skagit so much that I might as well live on it. I would give my left nut to hear that they will open the river up for 30-80lb summer kings. This years forecast is higher than previous years but we will still not get a fishery because the bi-catch of Chinook will be too high when they are netting all the sockeye and silvers.

I'm not saying that it will be an easy fix. Right now I'm talking about native steelhead on the Peninsula. By catch is definitely a problem, but as for steelhead, the hatchery fish come back early in December, the natives are late, so if they could just catch all their fish early and leave the nets out for longer periods in February it would drastically improve escapement numbers. Every fishery has it's own challenges. But the OP has a clear solution to the problem that is easy to see, and it is much more possible to solve.

We need to pressure the state to change the escapement goal. It's an arbitrary number based on faulty logic. If they didn't net until we met escapement, it would make all the difference.

[Norm]

Not netting until they make escapement is a genius idea. I wonder why the state didnt think of that, oh yea because it would piss off the nates for not being able to get on the river. After awile what do you give a prissy little b*tch that wont shut up? What she wants because your tired of hearing her B*tch and complain. Thats our state government. Anyway guys im tired of complaining about our state and its pet. Good job Nate for making a stand and wanting to go a different route, I hope one day others will follow, including the state.

[sickbayer]

Not netting until they make escapement is a genius idea. I wonder why the state didnt think of that, oh yea because it would piss off the nates for not being able to get on the river. After awile what do you give a prissy little b*tch that wont shut up? What she wants because your tired of hearing her B*tch and complain. Thats our state government. Anyway guys im tired of complaining about our state and its pet. Good job Nate for making a stand and wanting to go a different route, I hope one day others will follow, including the state.

[Bay wolf]

Not netting until they make escapement is a genius idea. I wonder why the state didnt think of that, oh yea because it would piss off the nates for not being able to get on the river. After awile what do you give a prissy little b*tch that wont shut up? What she wants because your tired of hearing her B*tch and complain. Thats our state government. Anyway guys im tired of complaining about our state and its pet. Good job Nate for making a stand and wanting to go a different route, I hope one day others will follow, including the state.

The tribes are "Co-managers" in this state. Equal to WDFW in management authority. WDFW cannot dictate to the tribes when they can fish. They can only ask the tribes for cooperation in setting netting seasons. Look what happened on the Puyallup with the closures to sport fishermen during the Puyallup Tribes netting. There is no leverage at all on the State level to do anything about tribal netting. Federal enforcement of the ESA is the engine that drives everything, and as long as the Feds will not regulate by catch through "selective gear" for the netter's (commercial and tribal) they will continue to do what is "legal" and not what is right.

[Norm]

Goodbye fish. You better get your fishing in now while theres still fish left

[natetreat]

Not netting until they make escapement is a genius idea. I wonder why the state didnt think of that, oh yea because it would piss off the nates for not being able to get on the river. After awile what do you give a prissy little b*tch that wont shut up? What she wants because your tired of hearing her B*tch and complain. Thats our state government. Anyway guys im tired of complaining about our state and its pet. Good job Nate for making a stand and wanting to go a different route, I hope one day others will follow, including the state.

The tribes are "Co-managers" in this state. Equal to WDFW in management authority. WDFW cannot dictate to the tribes when they can fish. They can only ask the tribes for cooperation in setting netting seasons. Look what happened on the Puyallup with the closures to sport fishermen during the Puyallup Tribes netting. There is no leverage at all on the State level to do anything about tribal netting. Federal enforcement of the ESA is the engine that drives everything, and as long as the Feds will not regulate by catch through "selective gear" for the netter's (commercial and tribal) they will continue to do what is "legal" and not what is right.

Yea, but they don't even abide by the agreed upon North of Falcon rules. There are rules that govern the season setting. They are allowed a free for all out there now because nobody has the balls to do anything about it. I say we treat them like a foreign nation, and put economic sanctions on them. Close the borders! No non-tribal citizens should be able to buy fireworks of gamble. I would be happy with setting the escapement higher. They are dual citizens, which means they are subject to our laws. If we would change our regulations to catch and release only on the OP, I'd be more inclined to guide out there. You guys are absolutely spot on with identifying the problems out there.

[Bay wolf]

Not netting until they make escapement is a genius idea. I wonder why the state didnt think of that, oh yea because it would piss off the nates for not being able to get on the river. After awile what do you give a prissy little b*tch that wont shut up? What she wants because your tired of hearing her B*tch and complain. Thats our state government. Anyway guys im tired of complaining about our state and its pet. Good job Nate for making a stand and wanting to go a different route, I hope one day others will follow, including the state.

The tribes are "Co-managers" in this state. Equal to WDFW in management authority. WDFW cannot dictate to the tribes when they can fish. They can only ask the tribes for cooperation in setting netting seasons. Look what happened on the Puyallup with the closures to sport fishermen during the Puyallup Tribes netting. There is no leverage at all on the State level to do anything about tribal netting. Federal enforcement of the ESA is the engine that drives everything, and as long as the Feds will not regulate by catch through "selective gear" for the netter's (commercial and tribal) they will continue to do what is "legal" and not what is right.

Yea, but they don't even abide by the agreed upon North of Falcon rules. There are rules that govern the season setting. They are allowed a free for all out there now because nobody has the balls to do anything about it. I say we treat them like a foreign nation, and put economic sanctions on them. Close the borders! No non-tribal citizens should be able to buy fireworks of gamble. I would be happy with setting the escapement higher. They are dual citizens, which means they are subject to our laws. If we would change our regulations to catch and release only on the OP, I'd be more inclined to guide out there. You guys are absolutely spot on with identifying the problems out there.

Please attend the next North of Falcon meeting in Olympia. You will have the opportunity to voice your concern to the very people who make the rules. There might even be a tribal rep there that you can talk to, one on one.

[jd39]

Reminds me of an Einstein quote "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Apply it to Washington State & Tribal salmon/steelhead fisheries management as you see fit, in my opinion it sums it up perfectly. Solutions are available but they won't be implemented until it's too late. Want to know why? See quote above.
Sorry I can't be more positive about the situation. I generally like to be positive about things but where money is in conflict with common sense I have not seen common sense win very often and so my cynicism takes over.
I'm a follower of Norm's sentiment, get out and fish while you can! In regards to this topic, I plan to C&R wild steel as long as I'm legally allowed to do so. When all stakeholders, including tribes, are making sacrifices to protect these runs I'll revisit my position but not before.
Don't mean to derail the thread/conversation but that's my honest assesment and stance.

[natetreat]

I'll be at the one in Olympia, and Mill Creek. Like I've been saying, I'm not as pessimistic as a lot of people. It's not unreasonable to expect that we'll see native fish become healthy again. Anger and frustration are understandable, but not helpful when dealing with this.

I have no problem with folks going out and fishing for them. I may even make a recreational trip out there before it's over. I'm just not going to take money to go out there. It's a point on principle. I'm not going out of business because I'm not fishing out there. Other guides wouldn't go out of business if they didn't fish it. The tribe wouldn't be impacted too much if they didn't net as many wild fish. Businesses don't need to buy native steelhead.

The approach should be two pronged: raise escapement goals, discourage restaurants from purchasing an unsustainable product. I'm doing my part.